Quote from: "56008"

Quote from: "BSO"Like I've said, the system isn't perfect, but we're working on it. It would be infinitely easier with a PM system, but this is the situation we're in for the time being. The goal is of course to make people aware of why something was removed when needed, which is also why I think edits aren't as good. There's no guarantee that someone will go back into a thread to see an edit, but with their e-mail account, the chance is much higher.

Which is good and all but the email route is obviously not being done at the moment and since there's no sign of a PM system coming anytime soon, shouldn't SOMETHING be done?  I'd rather have a mod edit that isn't guaranteed to read by said poster, than not being informed at all.



And as for the system not being perfect?  No kidding!  Seriously though, moderating a forum is never perfect since it's practically impossible to find that perfect balance of being strict or lenient with the moderation.  And things did not help that we have a pretty rowdy bunch of people in the Mighty No. 9 forums.  However, let's be honest here: the ultimate reason why the system isn't "perfect" is that we have a very inexperienced person as our Community Manager that was assigned to moderate a very poorly designed forum.

Judgement is something that comes with experience. You can't force experience to come faster though. I made plenty of mistakes when I was first starting out, and it took a long time for me to feel fully confident in what I was doing. The difference then was that I had other people that had that experience already, helping me out. That's part of what I'm trying to do there now.

Quote from: "56008"

Quote from: "BSO"

Quote from: "56008"What on earth are you talking about?  Are you honestly saying that we get emails for every post that gets deleted?  Because you and I know that is not the case.  The only happen when a warning is dished out, and by then the damage is already done.

If not an e-mail then it should be some method of making people aware of the reason. You're right however, this has not always been the case. I'm working on making sure that it is.

Thank you for clarifying that.  For a second there, I thought you were spewing some obvious BS to all of us.

Like I've said, the system isn't perfect, but we're working on it. It would be infinitely easier with a PM system, but this is the situation we're in for the time being. The goal is of course to make people aware of why something was removed when needed, which is also why I think edits aren't as good. There's no guarantee that someone will go back into a thread to see an edit, but with their e-mail account, the chance is much higher.

Quote from: "56008"

Quote from: "BSO"Which would be why then that happens it would come with an e-mail now. This is one of the main reasons I wanted the e-mail, since due to a lack of a PM system, it's the only alternative to getting information to people with a deletion.

What on earth are you talking about?  Are you honestly saying that we get emails for every post that gets deleted?  Because you and I know that is not the case.  The only happen when a warning is dished out, and by then the damage is already done.

If not an e-mail then it should be some method of making people aware of the reason. You're right however, this has not always been the case. I'm working on making sure that it is.

Quote from: "TrueMightyNo9fan"

I'm sure.



Four. Sending someone an e-mail in the hopes that they might be on and will see it in those 10 minutes will almost always be a pointless wait. I'm also not a fan of ignoring clear violations of the rules.



I answered several of your questions, but I don't care for leading ones.



If you'd like to know about my stance on how to moderate, then it's as simple as that I'll deal with issues that violate the rules, and will do nothing to posts that don't. This is a fairly simple issue with few exceptions, such as removal by request of the poster.



Yes, flash is not perfectly secured in every possible way, neither is about almost everything else on the internet. I'm not going to avoid being able to use a large number of things on it just because I'm not able to prevent every possibility. I drive a car, I'm pretty sure I'm willing to take the risk of using flash.



Examples of what, people?

Quote from: "56008"Sorry, want to throw in my 2 cents here:

Quote from: "BSO"I think that mod edits have a higher potential for being disruptive than deletion. A deleted post can be remade as long as the issue with it is edited out, but what is someone able to do with an edited post?

Really?  One of the big issues with simply deleting posts is that we can't learn from them.  Why was it deleted?  Who's to say, there's no mod edit to explain it to me!  I'm not saying that posts should NEVER be deleted, but there's plenty of merit with editing them instead.

Which would be why then that happens it would come with an e-mail now. This is one of the main reasons I wanted the e-mail, since due to a lack of a PM system, it's the only alternative to getting information to people with a deletion.

Quote from: "TrueMightyNo9fan"Could you rephrase, I did not get what you meant here?

I think that mod edits have a higher potential for being disruptive than deletion. A deleted post can be remade as long as the issue with it is edited out, but what is someone able to do with an edited post?

Quote?  Apathetic to others, including personal situations.

That's totally why I'm here and optimistic, because I'm apathetic.

Quote?  Easily dismisses requests and issues.

Except for how I've been attempting to address them almost constantly?

Quote?  Does not care about security holes, careless.

Apparently flash will kill my computer? Guess I'd better uninstall everything then throw the computer away just to be safe. Gotta watch out for those leet hackers after all.

Quote?  Has extreme optimistic expectations, does not adapt easily to situations.

Extreme? I'm not sure I'd call the assumption that several people that were upset with the situation are able to be turned around as extreme.  Not sure where you're getting that second part from.

Quote from: "TrueMightyNo9fan"So deletion of posts is better. I see.

I'm of the opinion that allowing people to remake posts without offending content on their own terms is a better choice, yes.

QuoteIt's your choice if you want to work for free. But Mighty No. 9 is not a small website. Recall the site should have  71,493 users. Not the 300~ now that are afraid to post.

No, trust me, it's small.

QuoteI guess you haven't done your homework. But at the least you read, and I hope you will be wary.

If there was ever something that my previous comment about paranoia was going to apply to, it's this.

QuoteBut I am surprised you still use flash. Oh well.

I enjoy being able to use a large portion of the internet.

Quote from: "NotSpiderBread"

Due to the horrible threat of snow, I've got nowhere to be today.

Well I think you?ve got Spider beat.



First off, if Char wants an e-mail, he knows what he has to do. Send a request, and we?ll be more than happy to tell him the reasons for this ban, and even the last one if he wants. Since however he's already made very clear he's not going to do that, this is the situation we find ourselves in.



Personally I don?t like having to do Mod Edits. I don?t like the idea of jamming something like that into the middle of someone?s post for all to see. Until we get the PM system however, this is something we might still have to do from time to time.



I?ve already been doing moderation work for free for over five years. Taking on a small website like this may as well be a hobby at this point.



You keep talking as if everything that gets removed is in no way a violation of the rules, which simply isn?t true. Paying a company money doesn?t give you the right to stand there and yell obscenities at their employees, and it certainly doesn?t give you the right to do so at their other customers. Just because you?re on the internet doesn?t mean everything that?s said needs to be tolerated.

QuoteIncluding Blackmail

Hahaha, oh wow. If nothing else this gave me a chuckle.



There?s a difference between giving one person a warning for their behavior on the kickstarer, and giving everyone warnings if they were to dare post something not about the game.





Most all of the rest of this is stuff that I don?t really have any business responding to, as I'm not comcept nor do I know all of their inner-workings and reasoning's. Also, I prefer this playlist.

Quote from: NotSpiderBread

Quote from: BSO

Quote from: epicnightsThe comment about the kickstarter comments really resounds with me. As of recent, I've started seeing more of the "hug box" environment that the comments are always called out on, especially from users like Morningstar, Holo, and Steven. It's embarrassing to see them outright attacking people who mention any of the distress going on.

I'm pretty sure that everyone on the mod team would like to see them move to the forums at this point. We can't "force" them though. We don't have the ability to mod comments, and we're not going to start warning everyone posting on the them for spamming, that's just not reasonable. All we can do is try to encourage people to use the comments less and the forums more.

Well i think some public encouragement from mardinafune would remedy the situation. However you know full well of my suggestions from my email

Maybe, maybe not. We'll see what our options are. One way or another though, we're still looking into more ways to get important information (forum access questions) more available.

Quote from: epicnightsThe comment about the kickstarter comments really resounds with me. As of recent, I've started seeing more of the "hug box" environment that the comments are always called out on, especially from users like Morningstar, Holo, and Steven. It's embarrassing to see them outright attacking people who mention any of the distress going on.

I'm pretty sure that everyone on the mod team would like to see them move to the forums at this point. We can't "force" them though. We don't have the ability to mod comments, and we're not going to start warning everyone posting on the them for spamming, that's just not reasonable. All we can do is try to encourage people to use the comments less and the forums more.

Quote from: NotSpiderBread

Quote from: DunnoBroIs it just me or did BSO avoid addressing any of the points made by Truemighty.



Backer forum mods seem to have a knack for that.

Is it just me or are people completely disregarding the points he did make and labeling it as him "avoiding"  them altogether?



People are acting like he's actively contributing to some conspiracy to quiet all of the "dissenters" rather than trying to get their voices heard.



Refunds don't concern him, he's not an employee of DDM.



He's not an employee of Comcept, he can't get Dina fired anymore than she can get Inafune fired.



He's also an unpaid forum mod that participates and mods in his free time. He even said he took the position to try and promote some change. I've seen the change (I'm looking at you emails about the posts that lead to people's bans). Had it not been for him, we probably wouldn't have gotten those.



He's also responded to basically all of the emails I've sent to the modgmail personally. And when I say emails, I mean fucking novels. I have half of an encyclopedia set in my sent folder to the mod-gmail.



He can't control the way Pon or Damo moderates, mostly because he's not them, unless he has a giant case of multiple personality disorder and blacks out when he decides to post as them with no recollection of doing so. I doubt that's the case.



What he can do is see the errors of the other members moderation habits and address them privately to try and change how they approach people publicly, which he said he's doing.. Why on earth would he put other mods on blast on the forums for being fuck ups or not defend the company of the forum he mods for?  I'm sure that wouldn't bode well for his "employment".



He can't change the past, nor take back the bans that have already happened, nor can he make every. single. goddamn. change. everyone. fucking. demands. immediately.



Yea it fucking sucks that DDM told us to fuck off with refunds, yea it sucks we were banned for stupid shit, yes it sucks that Dina surrounded herself more-or-less with "yes men", but the kicker to all of this is that it wasn't BSO's fault nor doing and just because he's associated with them doesn't make him apart of the problem. Jesus christ.



inb4 I'm called a BSO whiteknight. You guys are starting to get a bit ridiculous.



/end rant

I can say something on the refunds if people would like, keeping in mind though that again this is only my personal view, and not even remotely official in any way.



I posted on this before, and I don't fully agree with every reason that people have had with wanting to pull out. The situation had a rough start and is still working on getting itself straightened out, but I still feel like wanting to abandon ship the second she got the job was premature. Situations are almost never beyond repair, and almost never unable to be improved. Kickstarter is a strange element that's between purchasing a product and putting in an investment, and I can understand why given what was going on, they might not have been so inclined to hand out refunds to everyone that was asking. That being said, I think it's unfortunate that people weren't able to get what they wanted, particularly the ones that had more serious reasons (needing money for bills). I'd like it if people could keep the hope that the end result will still be what they want, but I can't fault them for being cautious about that. This is the situation we're in though, and the best that I can do for the people that are still here is to fix what I can. I want this to work, and I want people to feel like it's working. I was depressed enough when Legends and Universe got canned, I don't want to see this go south too. Call me delusional if you'd like, it seems like anyone that's still trying to be a Mega Man fan and hope we'll get something from Capcom at this point probably is at least a little bit.



The biggest challenge with moderation right now, aside from a lack of tools, is experience. Aside from Heat Man, I have the most experience with doing moderation work. Heat Man however is generally pretty busy, and when he's not it's during times when the forums aren't really active. Heat Man is also used to owning his own site too, so that's a bit of a change for him I'm sure as he doesn't get to run things however he'd like. Joseph and alraz are good guys, but alraz is pretty busy and more technically inclined, and this is new for Joseph. Pontata, as much as I know some people haven't liked everything that she's done, is a nice person. The issue there is frustration with the situation that makes it hard to always keep calm. It's an issue of needing to always think twice about what you're saying, because you never know how it might come off to people. A number of people seem to not like Damo because of his early posts defending Dina. I have to say though when it comes to moderation, he's agreed with me on most everything that I've suggested. While you may not agree with his personal opinions, he's shown good judgement on moderation. Also as I said before, Dina's doing less with moderation lately, and leaving it more and more to us. As far as I understand, most of the time there is being spent on putting things together for the development staff to look over, and translating.



This is still a new forum, still a new system, and still people new to the job. Most forums when they're first starting off have a very low number of users, most of them people that the owner would already know. This gives time to build the rules and policy as it's needed, and lets the forum grow over time. The issue here is that because it suddenly had a few thousand people dumped on it at once, it wasn't ready. I also doubt that comcept has much experience making forums, given that we're using one outsourced and made with Drupal. As time goes on, the people working here will learn from the things that happen, adjust to that, and slowly build up a better system. If the people on the team don't have the potential for that growth they won't last particularly long, I know this one from experience watching a lot of people that weren't able to cope, drop out themselves. Also, as Spider said, I can talk to them when something happens that may not have been a good choice. I don't have the authority to "make" anyone do anything, but I have yet to have anyone be unwilling to very seriously consider my opinion there, and that applies to everyone.



If there's anything that I want to try and get across from all of my posting here, it's that things aren't dead, it just has a slight limp. Please do not shoot the horse just yet. It's a matter of how much people want to be involved at this point, and in what way. Don't give up on that thread asking for suggestions, don't think that there's nothing to talk about in the thread's discussing weapons or bosses, don't assume that someone's out to get you because of what happened before. If all you want to do is hang back and just vote on things when they come out, that's fine, but if you want to talk about the game on the forums, please do so. Don't keep yourselves separated from the discussion like the Kickstarter comments.

Quote from: TrueMightyNo9fan

Quote from: BSOYes, we don't share information [anymore]. That doesn't mean that [warnings and ban reasons] aren't given, particularly early on before the e-mail started to be used more for that.

[/url]

Spoiler

I am going to assume this is what you meant, since your pronouns have no nouns to identify what they mean. Correct me if I am wrong, I can correct myself.

So we have to thank you for having Dina choose you as a Mod, to make the suggestions. Now we have a moderation email account still not 100% sanctified by comcept, since their domain is comcept.co.jp, not comcept.jp, proper moderator etiquette, and now summaries of ban reasons. Awesome. How does that help stop the unbiased moderation since the "current policy" that is secret as the dark side of the moon cannot stop faltering?



I am sorry, that last statement:

Quote from: BSOThat doesn't mean that [warnings and ban reasons] aren't given, particularly early on before the e-mail started to be used more for that.

[/url] was not true previously before you coming aboard. I commend you for going out of your way to make those changes come true, addressing Quattro here, and now us that have gripes with the current moderation bias.



HOWEVER, it shouldn't be your job to diffuse all the ills comcept and their PR staff has, and worse, for free. NO ONE, deserves to have their money refused of refunds, and on the last day to do so. I mean no one.



And to brush it off as if it is only complaints that are OFF TOPIC, OR SLANDER. Is a blatant lie to the consumer.



You, above all the Mods enlisted, should know very well what they did is outright theft. You should not have to defend comcept, for people pointing the obvious bias the other moderators have, the current CM, and comcept



Seriously. Stop for a moment, go to a mirror, and ask yourself this question, so that you can see your face:





Are you willing defend and diffuse the voices of people that paid for a service from a company that outright denied them of their voice and desire for refunds?





Take a moment to let that sink. Are you willing to be part of the hand that helped a company deny and lie about rendering services unmet?





Once you have an answer, please reply. The people are watching.







Also, I know very well they had to race to purchase the domain comcept.jp for just the moderation, since comcept's hand is tied by DDM. The whois screams of it:

Spoiler

QuoteDomain Information:

[Domain Name]                   COMCEPT.JP



[Registrant]                    comcept CO.,LTD.



[Name Server]                   ns1.dns.ne.jp

[Name Server]                   ns2.dns.ne.jp

[Signing Key]                   



[Created on]                    2010/12/17

[Expires on]                    2014/12/31

[Status]                        Active

[Last Updated]                  2014/01/01 01:05:12 (JST)



Contact Information:

[Name]                 comcept Inc.

[Email]                 comceptadm@gmail.com\[/EMAIL\]

[Web Page]                       

[Postal code]       556-0017

[Postal Address] Naniwa-ku, Osaka-shi

                            Minatomachi 2-1-7

                            Renaissa Namba Bldg

[Phone]                03-5781-0582

[Fax]                           

QuoteDomain Information:

a. [Domain Name]                COMCEPT.CO.JP

g. [Organization]               comcept CO.,LTD.

l. [Organization Type]          COMPANY

m. [Administrative Contact]     KI12974JP

n. [Technical Contact]          KI12974JP

p. [Name Server]                ns1.dns.ne.jp

p. [Name Server]                ns2.dns.ne.jp

s. [Signing Key]               

[State]                         Connected (2014/12/31)

[Registered Date]               2010/12/16

[Connected Date]                2010/12/16

[Last Update]                   2014/01/01 01:37:45 (JST)

http://whois.jprs.jp/en/

We will see you in the next response.



PS

It's sad that Dina still has not answered any critical questions in her AMA, after all the post removals.

Not sure why you assume it's not sanctified, particularly since it was given full approval to be changed to @comcept, the same one being used for their other e-mail for the game.



Proper policy inevitably brings proper moderation, that doesn't mean that adjustment is instantaneous though. Of course it won't help people that are inclined to see problem with everything that is done however. There are some people who will not be satisfied no matter what changes are made or what is done, I've known this for years. I'd like to hope there are still a number of people here that will be able to see that improvement is being made and that it's worth accepting that. It would be appreciated if what little optimism I have for that wouldn't be killed by everyone. If it is though, oh well.



My job is moderation, and of course I'm going to discuss that. Anything unrelated to moderation isn't officially my business though, and anything that I might say about it should be taken as the opinion of someone who is only a normal backer.



Services have been met, as people were told they'd have access, not that they'd keep it no matter what. Paying someone doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want. I know this fact all too well, and have for a long time.



My goal is the same thing it was when I backed the project, to get a great game. Part of that is getting our input, but unfortunately the forums hit a snag and the situation got progressively worse. My contribution to helping was to try and provide my input as to the best way to set up their moderation policies and their rules. When I was given the chance to help more directly, I took it up when I also saw that they were willing to make those changes that were being suggested. Unlike some people, I'm not under the impression that the only thing to do now is to try and damage the project as much as possible.

Quote from: TrueMightyNo9fan

Quote from: epicnightsWell, technically those are warnings, not a public ban.

[/url] Thank you for correcting me. Changed OP. And pointing this out since someone asked me to:

Quote from: BSOAs a final note, we don't share information about warnings publicly.

[/url] <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://mightyno9universe.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=574&start=30#p5088">viewtopic.php?f=9&t=574&start=30#p5088</a><!-- l -->

Spoiler

Code Select Expand

[quote][/quote] are now clickable!



You only need to nest them like so:

[url=http://url.address.tld]
[quote author=\"AUTHOR\"][/quote][/url]

[/spoiler

Yes, we don't share information. That doesn't mean that they aren't given, particularly early on before the e-mail started to be used more for that.

Quote from: NotSpiderBread

Quote from: BSOAs a final note, we don't share information about warnings publicly.

Except Dina did mention Char was banned in Hmmmletsbrainstorms Ask Some Stuff thread. Kinda sending mixed signals here. Just pointing that out.

The fact that a ban itself happened isn't exactly private, and by forum design is able to be looked up. It was also relevant to the question of why the thread was edited.