Quote from: "Jagos"In regards to IA, I honestly don't think it was wrong, it was just outdated information.  And given what was passed as information, I don't blame him for trying to counter some of that negativity that some of those press backers utilized to try to paint her as a victim in all of this.

I don't know what you or anyone else is talking about, but I was talking about something that I don't think he or anyone else really knows much about. It's fine, though, I don't really let it effect my judgement.

Quote from: "Jagos"The only real issue I have is probably with his recent Occupy comment, but that's more about personal politics.  He's a Constitutionalist while I'm a left wing, anticapitalist but that's neither here nor there.  I honestly can't find fault with his videos and he does do some interesting stuff (like his first one) that shows me he cares a lot more than I can say with others in the field.

Honestly, I'm really more in your camp (not completely, but still) and I still think his Occupy comment was pretty spot-on. Granted, as the above comment implies, I don't really know much about what goes on outside of the videos, so if it's about something he said elsewhere I didn't hear anything about it...

Quote from: "Quattro Bajeena"it would mean someone within the hugbox leaked it or some smarmy asshole, nothing is fool proof, remember the backer only chat they had here?

Yes? I mentioned it in the post you're quoting. Regardless, that's pretty much what I was saying. That anything other than individual log-ins is falling short of truly secure. An unofficial channel for backers by backers doesn't really need to be totally secure, though, I admit.

Quote from: "Quattro Bajeena"Thign is aristocrat is right with most of his videos, it's just the character assassination he usually preforms destroys the well built up points that hold

At least some of that is for the sake of being entertaining (if even to a very vulgar audience, that just means he knows his audience). Still, even when he is wrong about something, it doesn't make everything else he says automatically wrong as well. He's a smart guy, but he's human. Flawed like anyone else. He's going to be wrong sometimes. The truth is still the truth regardless of who says it, though... and he mostly speaks the language of truth.

Quote from: "Quattro Bajeena"they won't be reigned in, there were attempts made to set up an official password protected backer's IRC channel, but the hugbox went "IRC TOO HARD"

As much as "IRC TOO HARD" is a frustrating response that I've personally run into before in a similar situation... a universal password is pretty much just an honor system, and it's no better than the chatroom they tried to set up on this site. But a board is a board, and if they can post in the KS comments, they can post in the official forums.

Quote from: 56008As long as you treat us with respect, you get that respect back.  Simple as that!

It's amazing that so few people understand this very basic principal. Then they have the nerve to complain about disrespect when they were the ones who were set that tone in the first place. That's why this whole mess exists. Dina made a ton of mistakes, didn't own up to it, and to this day she won't just be an adult about it.

Quote from: JagosI just plan to try to be more a guy centered on the public view ala Internet Aristocrat (I know that ruffles feathers, but I'm not quite there on the sarcasm meter as he is...)

Despite the fact that he technically insulted me by addressing a group that I am semantically be a part of as if everyone in that group is the same as the people he was spotlighting... I still have nothing but respect for the guy. He's right most of the time and he makes really good points, extreme hyperbole for entertainment value aside. If someone faults you for any allusions to him, they're just as retarded as the people he mocks.

Quote from: Quattro Bajeenanothing is being done proper, I mean look at the project KS comments, it's a hug box chat room, with a mentality than mass reports users who don't fall into their mindset, and some of their postings are gaia online tier of posting

At this point I'm faulting the users of those comments. They're being stubborn with their BS and they should be reigned in like the children they are... but I don't know how much authority/control Comcept has over that, since it's Kickstarter's site. I don't know, I don't have a KS account or anything.

Quote from: 56008At the very least, I wanted a simple acknowledgement and perhaps an apology regarding the unprofessionalism

You expected someone working on this project to own up to their errors like a responsible human being? What are you,

Spoiler

sane

?

Quote from: 56008So yeah....why bother having rules when you don't even follow them, eh mods?

The rules only apply to people who are dissatisfied with the current situation, from what I can tell.



What was even the "reason" they gave you?

Quote from: NotSpiderBreadIs it just me or are people completely disregarding the points he did make and labeling it[...]

This. This is something that the "whiteknights" do all the time, and it doesn't make it better to do the same thing on the opposite side of the argument. The intelligent response to whiteknighting isn't anti-whiteknighting or blackknighting or whatever. It's logic and reason. People who lack that don't belong in the conversation, regardless of where they stand.



(I'm not singling out DunnoBro here, since I think I know what he meant, but what NotSpiderBread is still true in general and I'm piggybacking on his very legitimate points here to make one of my own.)

Quote from: epicnightsAs of recent, I've started seeing more of the "hug box" environment that the comments are always called out on, especially from users like Morningstar, Holo, and Steven. It's embarrassing to see them outright attacking people who mention any of the distress going on.

What's embarrassing is that they use it as a chitchat forum. It's a comments section for a game. At least talk about the game. It's not GaiaOnline down there.



Still, credit to you for being smart enough to see what's clearly not right. Blindness to faults are just as bad as delusions of their existence. The only way to improve is to correctly identify what is broken and what is working exactly as it should be.

Quote from: BSOIt means that I'll do what I have to, if I have to.

I got that, it just was (and still is) kind of a vague answer. I know those are generally good practice for PR purposes, it's just not clear where you stand exactly. I'm satisfied enough with the answer you gave, though. I know you have your own circumstances and I appreciate your attempt to clear things up regardless. It shows you give a damn, and that's something Comcept needs more of...

Quote from: BSOAnd since you think this is an important issue, I can approach the topic. Keep in mind however that you shouldn't expect anything to come of it. There is likely a better chance of Capcom giving the rights to Mega Man to Inafune. Not selling, giving.

This isn't about any specific company policy so much as the fact that you can't take a boatload of cash from people and demand they conform to the standards of your culture. The matter we were discussing is just the most recent/common/significant one, but it's an overall mindset that Comcept needs to change if they want to be a part of a market outside of their own region. If you want someone's money, you have to make them want to give it to you... and they did a good job doing that with the Kickstarter, obviously. If they continue in the direction they've been going, though, they're going to continue to lose customers. The rate of which will depend on how well they adapt...



Remember, this is all about PR, which is important for any company. Enforcing your own cultural standards on others is just plain bad for business, and bad practice in general. If you pass along anything at all, pass along that.

Quote from: "TheRaven"

Quote from: "epicnights"Just a quick reminder everyone, this is the "how are you currently feeling" thread.

This guys. I'm going to split the topic up.

Sorry about that, guys, just wanted to sort something out for my own peace of mind. Thanks for moving it, Raven.



As for how I'm feeling... beat. I was up until 2-3 hours more than I'm used to but still woke up at the same time as I always do...

Quote from: BSOI certainty wouldn't like it, but I'm not new to dealing with policies I don't like. That being said, I'm not the only moderator there.

I guess that's as close to an answer as I'm going to get. Anyway, thanks for your time.

Quote from: BSOI'm not agreeing with them because that's their stance, I'm agreeing because this is the same opinion that I've had for years when it comes to user's private information in regards to warnings or bans. Which is that it doesn't need to be discussed with anyone other than them. Frankly you'd probably have an easier time convincing Dina that it'd be a good idea than me, as this is pretty well ingrained into my style of moderation.



That accountability comes with that option for discussion. If for some reason they think that a moderator has overstepped their boundaries, they can send in an e-mail to comcept. That doesn't mean they'll agree with them, but not agreeing doesn't automatically equate to not being listened to.

Well, this situation forces users into a state of ignorance. It's not helpful to anyone, and it only complicates matters further-- as you've seen repeatedly by now, I'm sure.



At any rate, as you said, Comcept makes the policy decisions. They are ultimately responsible for that, not you. However, if they do change their stance on this matter, what would you do? Assuming it was one you disagreed with, would you uphold it? I don't care if it's a feasible scenario or not, consider it a hypothetical if you want. I just want to know how you'd approach that situation.

Quote from: BSOI'm not really concerned with trying to keep the paranoia of other users in check over issues that aren't related to them. Some people seem to want some kind of public ban list, but I greatly dislike sites that do this. It puts a spotlight on people that broke the rules for no reason other than to let people know about it. In many cases this can do a lot more harm than good as it permanently paints these people in some kind of bad light. Sure a lot of people that get banned are probably going to have it happen again, but there are a number who actually take from it and change. More importantly though, even if I agreed that letting everyone know exactly what users did was the best option, comcept isn't going to go for it. It was hard enough getting them to agree that sharing the information privately would be fine, as they are very protective of private information. I can make as many suggestions as I want, but in the end comcept makes final decision on what we can and can't do, and how we do it. This just happens to be something I agree with.



If I've learned anything over the last month, it's that Japan has very different views on internet culture than we do.

To begin with, you're probably going to want to adjust that view about paranoia. It's not an issue of paranoia, it's an issue of credibility. Your actions are not inherently right, and not allowing a review of their integrity means you can't improve. I'm not saying the public masses should be responsible for this, but there does need to be some accountability. Without that, credibility is given on faith alone, and that is not a reliable system of governance at all.



That said, you're right about the list thing. I was never advocating that. I was saying that each case needs to be addressed in front of the concerned members of the community. That's a wholly different matter entirely than any lists. I get that Comcept isn't exactly being reasonable here (and if you agree with them, seriously rethink your position here... more on that below), but advocating their problems when they're not even giving you a paycheck isn't doing anybody any favors. Even if they were paying you, it'd be shallow to not stand up and speak. I realize you've been doing a lot of that, and again I commend you... but on this matter, they're wrong, and it doesn't do anyone any good to side with them on this. I'm not saying to go in guns a-blazing. That's the same thing that gets people banned, and rightfully so... but a firm, civilized, and well-mannered approach does wonders. I'm probably preaching to the choir on this point, though, so just consider this part more of a general addressing of things overall. This does lead me to my last and most important point, though...

Quote from: BSOIf I've learned anything over the last month, it's that Japan has very different views on internet culture than we do.

This. This is what Comcept is doing wrong here. I know the amount of people upset at them right now is a smaller percentile than could ever be considered a majority, but these are still paying backers... and as things progress, more people are going to surface with issues unless Comcept adapts. They have a massively western audience and mostly western investors, and capitalism does not adapt to business-- business adapts to capitalism. People will not pay money to a company that did not meet their expectations, and if Comcept doesn't learn how to deliver to a western market, they will have a very hard time in the future to say the least. A lot of people backed the project for the community aspect... if Comcept is not respecting their interests, they aren't accepting their future business. If this is the approach they take, they aren't in a business at all.



This isn't about you, obviously, but it might be something worth mentioning in your next Mod Chat or whatever it is you guys use to communicate with each other...

Quote from: BSOWhat someone does with the reply to their e-mail is up to them. We're not going to be the one's to bring it to the forums though, and certainly not to a fan forum. The goal isn't to keep it "behind closed doors" we'd have to be delusional to think that was even possible given that we are willing to discuss these things. I'm not going to make it public just because someone doesn't want to use the method available to them though.

I think our definition of "public" is different here. This isn't the place to do it, no, but the users of the MN9 official forum should be able to know what's happening without having to view screenshots from other sites or otherwise having the exact right connections. It's easy to hide corruption if you force people to dig for it. Most people aren't going to bother, especially if it doesn't clearly and directly affect them immediately. Say what you will about that, it's not transparency if people can't see what's happening and why just by looking at what's going on at the site.

Quote from: BSOThis is also why we've been using the e-mail more, to get messages out to people when they've done something that breaks the rules. The biggest problem with the early forum moderation was the lack of communication, which led to a lot of people not understanding why they were banned, and jumping to conclusions. I can't go back and change what already happened, but I've been able to get a lot of adjustments made to help with those problems.

And to that end, you deserve much credit. You've done a lot, from what little I've gathered. Still, this ruling reeks of bias, and if you insist it is a legitimate decision, you need to prove your case to the people. Asking them to just trust you by virtue of you being the authority is not reasonable in the least. You still have to explain your decisions to the one you're serving. If it isn't easy for everyone to know why something happened, they're still going to jump to conclusions. What's worse, if you confine it to emails, the user can spread whatever misinformation they like because the issue itself isn't public to cross-reference with their claims. It's in the moderation team's best interest to be as transparent as possible.

Quote from: BSOI personally don't agree with the kind of moderation that would make those kinds of things a public spectacle.

Making a public spectacle is one thing, but hiding behind emails allows for some shady business without any real consequences... as long as everyone behind those doors is on the same page, anyway... and that's exactly what it seems like to everyone on the outside. Politicians pull some of their most heinous crap behind closed doors where nobody can see what they're up to...



The problem in that case and this one is a lack of transparency. It looks like favoritism and bias moderating because nobody is willing to address what's happening and why. How are other users supposed to know what's going on if it's all in emails? Don't say it's none of their business, because how are other users supposed to trust the moderators if they see things edited and deleted with no clear indication as to why. "You broke this rule" doesn't necessarily cut it. What part broke it? Specify, and be right about your reasoning or own up to it. Nobody will respect someone who doesn't accept their failings. This is true for non-authority-figures as well, but more-so for them due to the responsibility of their position.



I've seen screenshots of the post in question, and there were definitely mod-edit-worthy portions of it. A few, at the very least. The entire thing was brushed under the rug as "off topic" though, if I understand the situation correctly? Extremely tenuous reasoning aside, the "Other Games" argument doesn't really hold up to the level of response given. It's such an extremely minor thing that the reaction was overblown regardless of how it was handled by the moderated user. It is, to put it lightly, very extreme to be that tyrannical over such a tiny little matter like MN9 not being "all other games". It was relevant to the topic itself, which addressed games as a whole. If someone said what was your favorite character design, could they not say Beck? That's ridiculous. Making a fuss about it at all is doing far more than the 'infraction' is even worth. It's barely an infraction in the first place, because it's absurd that MN9 is outlawed outside of "MN9-specific sections"...



Anyway, I do commend you for coming out and talking about it. It's good to see you care enough to step out and deal with the masses anyway, even if it's certainly more stress than you deserve. Still, that's more than can be said for many others, to say the least. So take a breather if it gets too much... you're not a terrible person or anything, so you shouldn't endure more than the $0 worth they're paying you for anyway. It's voluntary, after all...

I used to run a phpBB forum or two way back in the day and I could swear there was an option to change the amount of posts per page. This one is a bit different than I recall (it was a long time ago, too) and it's entirely possible I'm remembering something else and thinking it was phpBB, but it'd be really nice if I could load more posts on a given page without affecting other users' settings.